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Start of #Fantasia buffer: Sun Feb 12 21:59:03 2012

<LurkingGoblin> anyway on a serious note, my idea, any thoughts on it? (the one about changing the nature of the MA threat)
<AngryDesu> I had shit to ask you! But i can't remember what it was!
<NHO> Repeat it, please.
<Winchester> Did anyone see what I wrote in killing Usagi?
<Thy-Robocop> apart from the people with same nicknames as the SB account
<Thy-Robocop> yes, we did winchester
<Winchester> I actually came up with a decent alternative - has any of the snippets so far mentioned Chibi-usa at all?
<NHO> >Did anyone see what I wrote in killing Usagi?
<NHO> Again, because I was unwillng to read seven or more pages of shitstorm, repeat your isea
<Thy-Robocop> remind me again, my memory is kind of short (Golden's name, that is)
<@Golden> Battle
<AngryDesu> Showers
<LurkingGoblin> It's on the newest page of the thread 10
<Thy-Robocop> aye, ok
<LurkingGoblin> both mine and robo's
<Winchester> NH0 - basically, don't kill Usagi, the senshi will be sad and then *everyone* will be sad.
<Thy-Robocop> Yes
<LurkingGoblin> Yeah that too
<LurkingGoblin> XD
<Thy-Robocop> I remember
<Thy-Robocop> which is why we aren't talking about killing her at all
<@Golden> Usagi's death could be a What If scenario we could do though
<Thy-Robocop> or at least
<AngryDesu> I don't mind killing, but Killing Usagi is recipie for a disaster since the others would go on a warpath.
<@Golden> A what would happen
<Winchester> The alternative is, if we want Usagi out of action, have her be pregnant with Chibi-Usa and thus unable to use the crystal safely.
<Thy-Robocop> we haven't got to estabilishing that pert
<NHO> On one manipulator, killing Usagi sets perfect BDH and DEM moment for the future.
<@Golden> Chibi-Usa was already born.
<LurkingGoblin> yes but my idea negates the need, go look at my post *pokes everyone*
<@Golden> is
<AngryDesu> BDH? DEM?
<@Golden> gamlain
<AngryDesu> oh, big damn heroes
<NHO> Big Damn Heroes and Deus Ex Machina.
<AngryDesu> ... See that second one?
<AngryDesu> That's bad.
<Winchester> Golden: has she been mentioned anywhere?
<Thy-Robocop> Yes
<Thy-Robocop> In gamlain's snippets
<Thy-Robocop> there's a recent one where she basically kind of unisons with Queen Serenity
<NHO> Suggestion: send her away, to repair stuff that still remains after Galaxia.
<AngryDesu> A lot of the opposition to people dying kind of amuses me on some level since 'someone dying' defines Akiko, and I wrote a future snip way back of her dying which no-one worried over.
<@Golden> Same
<AngryDesu> I'm happy to kill people off!
<@Golden> Seriously guys...
<AngryDesu> provided it's done reasonably.
<Thy-Robocop> it just has to be for a reason
<MrGreen> Has chibi-Usa's existence been solidified into actual, concrete canon, rather than snippets, though?
<@Golden> gamlain
<NHO> Done reasonably. Yes.
<@Golden> If you're a part of the project, that explains everything.
<AngryDesu> Technically there's nothing stopping Usagi from getting pregnant again.
<NHO> Killing Usagi with her tendency to come back to life is HARD.
<AngryDesu> Actually
<NHO> ...Damn
<AngryDesu> ... thinking on it, maybe it could be worked to explain why Chibi-Usa has no siblings,
<Winchester> Is there an archive of just the snippets somewhere? Trying to find them all by going through the threads will take forever
<AngryDesu> if whatever happens prevents Usagi from having further kids.
<Thy-Robocop> there's the wiki
<@Golden> The wiki is on the opening post of the first page.
<Winchester> Is it up to date?
<@Golden> Mostly
<LurkingGoblin> for those interested in my idea
<Thy-Robocop> Gamlain's snippets yes
<NHO> Usagi dies. She reincarnates. And MA finds her first.
<@Golden> Though BFR has to be cleared.
<MrGreen> It does "amuse" me that certain people seem to be operating under the assumption that anyone trying to kill any of the characters will walk up and fight them nicely, rather than hitting them when they're vulnerable.
<AngryDesu> usagi dies. She reincarnates. As a honey badger. MA is fucked.
<@Golden> lol
<Thy-Robocop> right...
<@Golden> The problem is MrGreen
<@Golden> We have to do this right.
<NHO> Gas grenade in sleep.
<Winchester> Usagi dies, the senshi go berserk, MGA credibility is shot
<AngryDesu> Lindy is plausibly a better target
<AngryDesu> if she's seen as the 'leadership' of the MGA at the time.
<@Golden> The Senshi, like Winchester said, would go insane.
<Thy-Robocop> shouldn't this be an authors only chat?
<@Golden> I don't mind if others join.
<Winchester> <- am author. Have listed snippet on index!
<@Golden> And NHO is one of our eternal lurkers.
<NHO> Thy-Robocop: Why? I am too shy to contribute in main thread.
<MrGreen> Any half-way competent detective can isolate the public magical girls down to a sub-set of the population of their hometowns. That is something that /will/ be done if you put them against a human opponent.
<Thy-Robocop> ok
<LurkingGoblin> I agree with what Thy-robo said awhile back in thread, and that mod seconded, we need to make the MA a whole different kind of threat
<Thy-Robocop> yes
<LurkingGoblin> not a combat threat
<LurkingGoblin> we have that in spades
<@Golden> It evolved into a more combatative threat while you were gone.
<Thy-Robocop> also, I proposed having a separate forum
<LurkingGoblin> we do NOT need MORE
<Thy-Robocop> the problem I see with chat, is that when people start talking on different topics, it gets more confusing
<NHO> Idea. MA want their status quo back.
<@Golden> I've experience with that.
<Thy-Robocop> it's bad enough trying to follow the thread when 2 or more discussions go on
<MrGreen> Incidentally, Hollewanderer was /completely/ correct when he pointed out that assuming that everything in the Nasuverse exists is stupid; you should restrict yourself purely to things specifically mentioned in the Prisma Illya stuff. That means that you need to count nothing else.
<@Golden> The Clock Tower exists
<@Golden> So Atlas and the Sea should exist as well.
<MrGreen> Nope.
<MrGreen> That's what "AU" means
<LurkingGoblin> well yes, but it needs to go BACK. frankly it's a terrible idea to have it as a combat threat. my idea (linked above and on page two of the linked thread) should be expanded so we can use it
<Winchester> At least with chat, if someone else says something while you're writing you'll see it when it's entered, and not find yourself on the next page while the rest of the conversation has left you behind...
<NHO> So, they do not fight MGA. They want to exploit MGA to do it. Because MGA got a lot of power.
<Thy-Robocop> and when people reply to others when the conversation moves on
<Thy-Robocop> see what I mean?
<LurkingGoblin> even without the BTVS conversion it can work

<Thy-Robocop> Winchester: that's also true
<LurkingGoblin> and yes I do see what you mean
<@Golden> For IRC, you have to keep your answers short and to the point
<@Golden> Depending on your typing speed
<LurkingGoblin> MA threat=noncombative threat
<LurkingGoblin> MA threat as combative=bad
<MrGreen> Look, it's very simple. They're the old, standing power. They have knowledge, influence, wealth, and expertise.
<NHO> So that MA-brainwashed MG will not work.
<MrGreen> And that means that they have /experience/ subverting old upstarts
<MrGreen> You don't brainwash people. You bribe them.
<MrGreen> You set things up so their goals are served by doing what you want.
<NHO> And they would do it from multiple fronts. Propaganda. Political influence. Individual work with discovered MG.
<AngryDesu> the MA is an out of context problem to the MG while the MG are an out of context one to the MA.
<AngryDesu> or that's how it should be.
<LurkingGoblin> That post details some of my ideas
<NHO> And general target is one: return that weil in place.

<@Golden> That'll make things easier
<LurkingGoblin> indeed
<MrGreen> "You want to protect your neighbourhood? Sure. I can just sign this check, and we'll get rid of that polluting factory. We agree, it's terrible. But for this to happen... you realise that no one is helped by you 'going public'? It's just pride. Things have to be /stable/ so things proceed properly."
<LurkingGoblin> yes that's more like it
<Winchester> The question is, how boneheaded are they going to be about that goal? Because sooner or later, they must realize that the battle is lost and that their agenda needs to change
<@Golden> That's where the combat part came in.
<MrGreen> Why? That's a genuine question people need to ask themselves. /Why/ do you need to be public? What do people gain from it?
<AngryDesu> Safety.
<AngryDesu> Very hard to avoid a threat you don't know exists.
<@Golden> There would come a time when the MA couldn't subvert the MGA anymore
<Winchester> Publicity is so no magical girl will ever find themselves alone
<LurkingGoblin> yes but that's where a converted Council of BTVS could come in. and I like my trial idea, it's a threat MGs wouldn't expect.
<Thy-Robocop> LurkingGoblin: well, we might not even need a converted BTVS council for what you suggest
<LurkingGoblin> true
<AngryDesu> No. Not BTVS. There's 'dicks' and there's 'we're the only ones who can do shit'
<Thy-Robocop> I haven't posted any of my stories or ideas in here yet
<AngryDesu> The MA's biggest issue is not that magical girls exist or that they go about saving people,
<AngryDesu> but that they've gone /public/
<Thy-Robocop> but I did plan to cover the topics you wanted to introduce

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<MrGreen> That's the thing. Yes, they might be young idealistic teenagers. But that's not out of context. Young idealists have been dealt with in the past. By helping them get older, and having things so they have more to lose by publicity
<AngryDesu> Remember a good chunk of the MA work on the belief that the more people who know about magic the less effective magic becomes.
<Winchester> Without being publically noticeable, it would be up to the MGA to find new magical girls before they get in over their heads. If the organization is public, new magical girls can just call in and announce themselves
<Winchester> That's why they need to be public - so that they don't miss anyone
<@Golden> And then there's the fan club.
<Thy-Robocop> I think it's time to break out my ideas for the story
<LurkingGoblin> @AngryDesu: not sure what you mean by that, post series council is down right fluffy nice to it's girls. Considering the girls take over.
<Thy-Robocop> so far I have only sent a message to gamlain about it
<MrGreen> And that's one of the things that the MA are offering. They are a secret conspiracy that /has/ managed to keep things quiet. Therefore, they have a way of finding incidents.
<Thy-Robocop> and possibly mentioned something in the main thread
<NHO> BTVS. Why would you add THAT?
<@Golden> BTVS expy
<LurkingGoblin> exactly
<MrGreen> Incidents which have been found can... why, dear girl, yes, you can go explain things to her, and we can add her to your local branch. Why, with your help, we can keep things much more secure, much more safe.
<MrGreen> The end of the world would be a terrible thing, and with your help, we'll be able to oppose it much better.
<Winchester> But even if the MA knew that there were magical girls beforehand, they don't have any idea how many there are or what they can do, or they wouldn't be so quick to oppose them. Their intel is nowhere near perfect
<@Golden> gamlain's online

  • @Golden has direct access :p

<AngryDesu> Showers has him covered.
<AngryDesu> And that line went somewhere horrible.
<LurkingGoblin> something like that, I see the MA basically taking control of the MGA, or trying to
<LurkingGoblin> and yes
<LurkingGoblin> yes it did
<Thy-Robocop> I wanted to ask you about your next planned Gil Graham snippet, as I’ve come up with a new storyline for the UK reaction snippets which could interact more with your storyline. In the one that I am currently working on, Madelaine, a muggle friend to Alyssa Gillespine from my snippets, starts setting up the first social network for UK magical girls, through use of forums, advertising, and links to her own blog where she has
<LurkingGoblin> damn you desu
<Thy-Robocop> damn
<Thy-Robocop> I was going to post what I wrote to Gamlain
<Thy-Robocop> the idea for my first story
<@Golden> I'll find out
<Thy-Robocop> copy paste it on here
<Thy-Robocop> but I failed
<AngryDesu> My current plan is to try and write 'coming home' snip for current BF, then go back and look into writing a new jumper scene.
<MrGreen> And that's something that you'll need to decide on for themselves. If they genuinely believe that they can keep things quiet, that means they have the power to do so. I would point out that a lot of magical girl series aren't exactly quiet, and with the right people watching the news, you can pick it up. Strange fainting fits in areas, explosions...
<Winchester> Can't copy multiple paragraphs
<Thy-Robocop> anyway, I mentioned in a previous thread that the main UK magical girls enemies at the moment is a group of mercenary mages who offer a Witness Protection service to other mages
<MrGreen> Exactly the thing that a pre-existing conspiracy suppressing the knowledge of magic would be looking for, because they're looking for magical incidents.
<Thy-Robocop> basically, they are hired to help mages who want to retire, or want to hire magic from their children, by any means necessary
<LurkingGoblin> actually that's a strong point
<AngryDesu> ... Thy, stop making me imagine Magical Girl A-Team.
<LurkingGoblin> lol
<Thy-Robocop> why so?
<LurkingGoblin> god, who would be Mr. T?
<Thy-Robocop> besides, what questions were you going to ask me?
<MrGreen> LurkingGoblin: What is a strong point?

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<Thy-Robocop> hello gamlain
<AngryDesu> Oh yeah - I wanted to know if you'd mind flicking an eye over my ZnT/MGLN bits. Trying to be less redundantly word-y with them in general.
<LurkingGoblin> @MrGreen: your point, it was a strong one
<gamlain> yargh. Morning
<Winchester> This must mean it's *not* that time again... :)
<AngryDesu> Compared to the NF stuff i mean.

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<@Golden> Copy my style.
<gamlain> not yet. I've been up for...2.4 minuites.
<@Golden> It's like yours
<@Golden> But less wordy
<@Golden> And poor description...
<Thy-Robocop> AngryDesu: PM me the story, and I will get to it
<Thy-Robocop> AngryDesu: don't link it here, because chances are I will lose the link
<AngryDesu> Sweet. Now to fight with Robo's index for the links to the bits... ahaha...
<Fenris_Blackwell> @Goblin: Someone with the power to awaken coma victims?
<Fenris_Blackwell> *random*
<Fenris_Blackwell> *shuts up/back to lurking*
<LurkingGoblin> lol
<AngryDesu> When Mr. T feels pity, the world works to correct it.
<LurkingGoblin> indeed
<MrGreen> LurkingGoblin: Basically, you need to build the assets that you give the MA around the role you plan for them to have. If you want them to have that scale of operations, and capable of shutting down all previous attempts to go public, then they need to be capable of it. And that means that "magic users going public" cannot be an outside context problem.
<MrGreen> They've seen it before.
<MrGreen> And they've won before.
<MrGreen> They've won by assimilation, by co-opting, by recruitment
<MrGreen> And, yes, the occasional targeted assassination of people when they're untransformed and not suspecting it.
<LurkingGoblin> so the question is, how do we make them a viable threat, without making them "too" much of a threat, to the point the MGA can't realistically beat them
<Winchester> The problem is, they're now in the digital era, and it's very very hard to bring something back under wraps once it's gone online
<AngryDesu> Eh... you forget that the MA is pretty tech-adverse for the most part.
<MrGreen> They're not dangerous because they are going to be sending out killteams. They're dangerous because the person running the operations against you was like you twenty years ago, and knows how you act.
<@Golden> And they're going to be people who pretty much say 'fuck you'

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<AngryDesu> Remember that Rin, who was a freaking progressive by their standards, supposedly doesn't even know how to use a mobile phone.
<MrGreen> This isn't a technological solution. It's a human, sociological solution.
<MrGreen> You can have all the fancy magic and technology you want, but their tactics fundamentally come down to people and the levers you use to get them to do what you want.
<Thy-Robocop> yeah
<Thy-Robocop> as for the MA getting around the technology bit, well, like I said, there's that Witness Protection group of mine
<Thy-Robocop> they are not adverse to technology
<Thy-Robocop> and they are more than likely to ally themselves with the MA
<MrGreen> They'll help you. And then they'll attach strings to their help. They're rich, and connected, and have assets, and they can pay people to keep track of the technology of the mundane world and monitor things for them.
<Thy-Robocop> considering an exposed masquerade makes it easier for bad people to find the people they protect
<@Golden> Helps that they're in UK territory.
<Thy-Robocop> indeed
<Thy-Robocop> this brings me back to my stories
<Winchester> Basically, when the MA sees Akiko on TV, they'll shit a collective brick house. Then they'll send agents to find Akiko, Nanoha and Fate and ask them to keep a lid on things. That's right about the same time when Venus goes public as well, urging magical girls to get in touch.
<Thy-Robocop> my current one has a Secret Keeper to a MG start setting up a social network for the UK MG, after the above events
<Thy-Robocop> all goes fine and dandy until the Witness Protection group shuts down her website
<Thy-Robocop> and plan to shut down her
<Thy-Robocop> But as it so happens, said secret keeper is friend of, and part of, "the McClane sisters"
<Thy-Robocop> who have a nasty tendency to Die Hard
<MrGreen> And this ties again into something I said. This should not be the first time that someone has gone public in a world with television. It's been 70+ years
<MrGreen> It should be a worry moment, but not an unprecedented one
<LurkingGoblin> true
<Thy-Robocop> so Maddie (secret Keeper), gets saved by her friend Sophie, who takes on Witness Protection goon while Maddie escapes
<gamlain> Basic assumption change, there.
<Thy-Robocop> to London
<LurkingGoblin> you know, i'm starting to see the same problem here that we had with the MA trying to kill MGs. Why aren't they succeeding?
<Thy-Robocop> where, in an attempt to get in contact with Gil, she walks into a joint MA/WP operation
<Thy-Robocop> who manage to trap her and almost shut her down
<MrGreen> In this case, if you want to get the MGs to "win", that means that what they, fundamentally, need to do is /overcome/ the cultural inertia of the MA. From within, too. Which means, yes, to some extent they will be co-opted, and some will be co-opted more than others.
<Winchester> Lone kook in a TV interview can be discredited. Multiple independent people going public in different channels is going to be way way harder. Especially since some of these incidents in themselves will be on camera.
<MrGreen> But it wouldn't have been a lone kook on a TV interview on previous incidents. it would have been a lone kook /with supernatural powers/
<MrGreen> That's rather different.
<LurkingGoblin> indeed
<Thy-Robocop> except Maddie stalls them, and uses a special phone of hers to transmit the conversation telepathically to every mage within a certain radius that includes Gil, a Liese twin, and an OC MG
<@Golden> And there's something else as well MrGreen:
<@Golden> The Magical Girls Fanclub
<Winchester> Also, how in the blue hells is the MA going to cover up the incidents that Gamlain has been writing about, including the storming of the Diet and whatnot
<Thy-Robocop> who then serve as the Big Dam Heroes
<Thy-Robocop> so, anyone followed my idea so far?
<@Golden> Yeo
<MrGreen> Which means that, yes, some of the MGs will effectively be compromised by the MA. There will be splits. Some people will seriously secret, and when no one knows who they are, their families won't be endangered
<MrGreen> But they will power through, and from /within/, elements of the MA will start to question the old dogma
<MrGreen> This will take time
<MrGreen> This won't be easy or fast.
<@Golden> Even on IRC I'm ignored.
<@Golden> :p
<AngryDesu> Who said that?
<MrGreen> That builds up to a later point, where MGs break away from the MA, probably after several years, taking elements of it with them. Possibly "subverting" most of the Japanese branch, who have fought with them, alongside them, and trust them more than some old conservatives in their towers.
<LurkingGoblin> thy-robo, yes I have, I like it, golden, indeed, and green, I was with you till the "years" part
<Winchester> The magical girls fanclub is a good point as well. Something like Akiko's reveal will go viral pretty much immediately, with tens of thousands of people wanting to know more. A MA-induced blackout on it after both Akiko and Venus will be seriously suspicious, and only fan the flames further
<@Golden> And there's the driving early force of it in the first place.
<@Golden> The one who's fanatically obsessed with MGs and finding them.
<MrGreen> Rushing the story is a bad idea. You need to give things time to happen, normalcy to sink in, and, yes, the MGs will need to /earn/ the trust of people.
<MrGreen> A crammed timeline helps no-one
<@Golden> Which won't happen with regular people because the Masquerade would be back up.
<LurkingGoblin> the concept of BF is that they go public, and STAY public, we can't have them go back in the box
<LurkingGoblin> it subverts the whole point of akiko jumping

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<LurkingGoblin> and makes arc 1 almost pointless
<@Golden> Who is MrGreen anyway?
<Winchester> The MA will be pushing the girls to go back in their box, and blacking out "traditional" media channels, but online the thing is going to grow explosively, to the point where everyone knows already no matter what the MA wants
<MrGreen> Then don't put an antagonist who wants to keep things quiet who's meant to be a serious antagonist, then. If you're going to categorically say that they have no chance of winning, that is a badly done plot that removes all tension
<@Golden> They do have a chance... *idea*
<LurkingGoblin> well, for us yes, not the readers, they won't know
<LurkingGoblin> and it will seem like a struggle
<MrGreen> No, it's pretty clear. You're rigging things so they can't help but lose.
<MrGreen> You've made them useless against the entire digital information apparatus
<@Golden> MrGreen
<@Golden> Listen for a moment
<MrGreen> Any halfway competent conspiracy /will/ know about the internet and such things. And if you want to put them against a conspiracy, then one which cannot handle the internet is not a good one.
<Winchester> If we must keep the MA as "people who want to keep magic under wraps", have them as fuddy-duddy old men who'll contact the alliance and ask them to go back under, and give them the reply of "it's completely out of our hands now, can't go back if we wanted to, which we don't"
<@Golden> The MA is still the MA
<@Golden> In its most basic format
<@Golden> Luddites
<@Golden> Consider this MrGreen
<MrGreen> That's why you /pay/ people to do those things for you, so you don't stoop to doing it yourself
<@Golden> For a moment
<DirkBastion> BTW, have you found an answer yet to the question of which MA this is?
<DirkBastion> The main nasuverse one?
<MrGreen> And if you refuse to make them serious antagonists who have a chance of winning, /why use them at all?/
<MrGreen> Why not... fuck, use the Technocracy from Mage: the Ascension who want no-one to believe in magic at all, to give but one example?
<Winchester> Besides, on all previous occasions where someone has attempted to go public, the masquerade spell has pretty much blocked them out all on its own, little to no MA intervention required. And Tuxedo Kamen drops that spell in one of Gamlain's snippets.
<LurkingGoblin> it's the one from the story we are pulling that brought it in in the first place, or a modified variant there of
<@Golden> He hasn't dropped it yet
<@Golden> Mamoru still hasn't realized it exists

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<@Golden> Ah
<@Golden> guten tag Rhaka
<gamlain> Not long from happening. Possibly even the next snip; I've been trying to get him to talk to me the subject for a while and I think he's ready.
<Rhaka> Guten Tag.
<LurkingGoblin> YAVOL!!!
<LurkingGoblin> what...
<Winchester> Oh, yes - another good reason to leave Usagi the heck alone - Mamoru is the one who controls the spell. Hurting Usagi in any way is going to have a diametrically opposite result to what they want.
<Rhaka> Considering I'm not on 3 Not-Battletech related channels here, I switched my nick. Just don't assume there's some "incognito" thing going on, ok?
<Thy-Robocop> gamlain: what are you talking about?
<MrGreen> If you want the Masquerade to be a serious thing, you should make the discovery of the spell be the entire focus of the 2nd arc
<AngryDesu> Oh, Havoc came in.
<Rhaka> *not = now
<LurkingGoblin> I wanted to say something german to!
<MrGreen> Not just drop it now.
<havocfett> I came in a while ago
<AngryDesu> Havoc: I wish to make this clear. The NF is *not* there 'to get the grimderp out the way'.
<havocfett> Yeah, I know
<AngryDesu> There's lots of other stuff in this shitstorm which annoys me, but that claim by Darth really pissed me off.
<MrGreen> *snerk* Someone better make that clear to DA, then.
<@Golden> NF is going to be very grimdark soon.
<Rhaka> I was gonna say. :/
<@Golden> DA is DA
<havocfett> The NF is actually an /incredibly/ awesome idea for a plotline.
<Rhaka> I also protest the overuse of "grimdark". This is not a binary decision.
<AngryDesu> The problem is confronting DA is going to make an even bigger shitstorm.
<MrGreen> If DA is DA, then you damn well slap him until he stops being a prima donna
<@Golden> The reason I 'enable' him is what Desu said
<MrGreen> Or put him on ignore
<AngryDesu> I think Grimdark/grimderp should be wordfiltered or auto-microbans or something. So much over use.
<LurkingGoblin> meh, no need the NF is the NF with oe without DA
<havocfett> I'm with you there
<Rhaka> I take it Golden = Battle
<Rhaka> ?
<@Golden> Made the IRC
<MrGreen> Enabling him just lets him go on with his ways
<gamlain> (Robo: An actual snip of Mamoru realizing the Masqurade spell is there. It may actually happen well before, timelinewise, where I am now; Not sure and probably won't be till I write it.)
<@Golden> Won't let me make Owner
<@Golden> And what I'm doing is the best I can do.
<Rhaka> But you are channel founder.
<Thy-Robocop> gamlain: I see
<@Golden> Desu/Goblin would do much better as they helped found the Project
<LurkingGoblin> Indeed
<MrGreen> gamlain: I'd like to repeat that I think you should reconsider. Shouldn't the Masquerade spell be the entire focus of the Second Arc, which is tied into concealment and Masquerady things, and so removing it at the climax would be a good revocation and symbolic defeat of the MA.
<MrGreen> "You now can't win ever", it says.
<MrGreen> Removing it before defangs them.
<LurkingGoblin> I forget who started started it *goes back to check*
<@Golden> Second Arc hints are going to start being dropped soon
<@Golden> DA made the first thread
<gamlain> Sorry. Out of character for Mamoru and the abilities of the Senshi.
<gamlain> DNMS.
<Winchester> But the post which started it was one of AngryDesu's in the MGLN ideas thread
<MrGreen> Indeed, if you're going to tie things into the MA, then wouldn't discovering from /them/ be the best way to find out the existence of the spell?
<MrGreen> The secret at the heart of the organisation.
<MrGreen> Because, you know. Mages. And spells.
<Thy-Robocop> LurkingGoblin: this comes quite late, but which "years" part did you stop following me at?
<LurkingGoblin> That was at Green
<LurkingGoblin> as the MGs are supposed to go public at the start, not years into the story
<@Golden> Or begin to be public.
<LurkingGoblin> well yes
<LurkingGoblin> but he was going to have it covered up for years, we need them public for years so that the late stuff at StrikerS can happen
<gamlain> Sorry, suspension of disbeleif break there. Does not work. The MA isn't even properly aware of Mamoru's part in that issue. The Senshi, however, will have been looking at /why/ this happened pretty much from the moment Akiko jumps. And between Mercury, Mars and Neptune the chances of them not figuring it out are *small*.

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<MrGreen> Well, by "years", I was talking of the order of one to two.
<MrGreen> Um, what, gamlain? Your axioms are flawed.
<@Golden> Mercury will
<Winchester> Basically, there's the masquerade spell actually keeping magic secret, and there's the MA thinking they're keeping magic secret. Poetic justice would be if the MA has actually done more to promote the awareness of magic among the mundane PTB than they have to keep it seecret, due to them not knowing about the spell
<MrGreen> They don't /need/ to know that he did anything.
<@Golden> But as your snippets show, they don't have time to focus on it.
<MrGreen> What they /know/ is that there is a vast working, covering up all magic.
<@Golden> Which they enhanced.
<MrGreen> An ancient, vast one, which only a few enlightened souls can bypass, to look past the veil.
<AngryDesu> less 'enhanced' more 'put up their own shit in addition to'.
<Rhaka> Why did they put it in there in the first place and what keeps it working?
<MrGreen> And, no, to go "oh, the Sailors trivially discover it" is to /completely/ ignore the point of "thematic and dramatic tension"
<@Golden> The Masquerade was actually put up by Endymon
<Winchester> And the reason it's not doing its job right now is because the people going public are tied directly to the source of the spell - in effect they have administrator privileges
<MrGreen> Because a Masquerade spell obviously /conceals itself./
<@Golden> When he died
<gamlain> technically incorrect but close enough as I've conceptualized it for a while now.
<AngryDesu> As i recall - and i don't doubt this has been yelled down at least once - Endymon set up the original masquarade effect by accident back before he died.
<@Golden> His death enhanced it
<Rhaka> Oh wow, that is pretty different from when I was around.
<AngryDesu> Sort of a dying wish to keep the reincarnations of everyone safe to which the Earth went 'okay'.
<MrGreen> It isn't much of a Masquerade spell if anyone can tell that it exists easily. The best trick it plays on the world is convincing it that it didn't exist.
<Rhaka> So something went horrible wrong and the Masquerade went up.
<@Golden> Beryl went wrong
<dan-heron> horribly wrong and horribly right
<Rhaka> I take it the MA was founded to find and teach magic users? Set up by those powerful enough to pierce the barrier?
<LurkingGoblin> I see it as the Sunnydale effect on a world wide scale myself
<AngryDesu> Well, yeah. Beryl happened. Killed everyone. As he died Endymon wished for the reincarnations to be safe.
<dan-heron> otherwise you'd have had the Dark Kingdoms teaming up all the time instead of going one by one
<Thy-Robocop> bloody hell
<AngryDesu> The Earth kept them safe as best it could.
<Thy-Robocop> this is getting all confusing
<Rhaka> No shit.
<AngryDesu> It's just... y'know. Like asking a nuke to knock down a house.
<Rhaka> This is what happens when you redesign story elements without writing them down somewhere.
<Rhaka> I'm pretty sure what we're discussing right now is strewn across at least 5 pages and 3 threads.
<AngryDesu> This was what it was last i knew, and that was waaaaaaay back near the start.
<LurkingGoblin> instead of "That's not a vampire bite, that's a BBQ fork accident!" it's "that's not a shadow beast, it's a very large dog!"
<dan-heron> we have had this point down from quite a while
<@Golden> That hasn't changed
<@Golden> Maybe minor touch-ups but the main concept is exactly the same.
<MrGreen> Hence, it's pretty clear that if the Second Arc is focused on the masquerade, and the organisation that helps enforce it, then /breaking the spell/ that basically means that they have always won before should come at the climax of that arc
<Rhaka> It did actually, but I guess we who wrote it were just ignored for the most part.
<LurkingGoblin> basically it's a perception filter/memory retcon spell
<dan-heron> no, we have kept it going, Rhaka
<@Golden> dan-heron:
<dan-heron> yes, Golden?
<@Golden> Need to talk to you about something
<dan-heron> yah?
<Rhaka> Nope, there were several of us who made a different timeline and nobody actually bothered to point out that it was supposed to be this specific way.
<Rhaka> Anyway.
<Rhaka> The question remains: what exactly has the MA to gain from keeping the barrier up? Are they acting like a magic monopolist?
<AngryDesu> Probably. Pretty sure a lot of them have the belief that the more magic is known the less effective it becomes (which is one of those nasu-style wtf things).
<MrGreen> It's pretty clear that, by the intent of the spell, it has just as much of a bad effect in the monsters and dark kingdoms too; they forget, they are veiled, they are compelled to be small scale.
<dan-heron> the "Disbelief" thing, right Desu?
<@Golden> It's conservatism at its worst
<@Golden> Rigidity
<@Golden> Unwilling to change
<AngryDesu> Something like that Dan. Essentially it makes 'going public' the big crime in their eyes.
<Rhaka> Alright. That should already define the nature of the MA. You could throw in a whole magician philosophy in, as their pet religion, if you want to go for a more cult-like organisation.
<AngryDesu> Which ties in with Illya and Rin's constant assertion that getting found out is very, very bad.
<Rhaka> A magician philosophy might actually be a really good angle to hinge them on.
<MrGreen> Look, "the more magic is known the less effective it becomes" isn't a sound basis in a universe where that is objectively false. When doing a fusion, it's showing a lack of respect to just get rid of their raison d'etre like that, without giving a new, appropriate one.
<Rhaka> It wouldn't be far off when it is rephrased as the basis of a philosophy.
<LurkingGoblin> I'm gonna write up an idea and post it on the forum, this chat is moving a bit to fast for details
<AngryDesu> It's not a sound basis in a /universe/
<AngryDesu> but it is a sound basis of a /belief/
<MrGreen> But they're coming from a universe where they were correct
<AngryDesu> It doesn't have to /be/ true for people to /think/ it is.
<MrGreen> And you've just stripped that way.
<MrGreen> That's showing a lack of respect in crossover metaphysics
<Rhaka> Perhaps taking inspiration from Foundation, someone long ago ago set up the MA as a way to preserve their way of magic and it just went wrong.
<havocfett> It is completely possible that they are mistaking correlation with causation
<havocfett> Magic is decreasing as the mage population grows, ergo more mages and people who know of them equals less magic
<AngryDesu> Nnnnooooo green. That's showing that people can be stupid and are more likely to believe what they think is right over what actually is right, not that crossover metaphysics are wrong.
<havocfett> Whereas the actual answer is Plot related.
<MrGreen> You're not following me. You've just changed them from being objectively right to being objectively wrong by the crossover.
<havocfett> And of course, people being wrong in their reasoning, as long as they have /some/ basis for beginning to believe that, is not disrespecting them.
<havocfett> In this crossover, either they must be objectively wrong, or everyone else must be objectively wrong.
<Rhaka> I have to come down on the site of the "they are wrong" crowd here, because if they are right, then pretty much the entire project falls apart as everybody else is depowered when the barrier drops.
<AngryDesu> Except there's nothing saying they're objectively right in nasu canon either. At no point has 'more people knowing = less magic' been made fact, only that mages believe this to be so.
<MrGreen> Yes. And that means that you need to give them a new raison d'etre which is not just proven wrong
<havocfett> The best option, considering teh amount of factions who are not them, would be to make them wrong for good reasons.
<MrGreen> I'm not arguing that they should be right.
<Rhaka> Hang on
<MrGreen> I'm arguing that you shouldn't make them trivially, casually, cacklingly wrong and easily proven so.
<MrGreen> Take the existence of the Masquerade spell. What does it mean if it actively moves to conceal the existence of magic?
<havocfett> Well duh
<MrGreen> Why, it means that mages who are overt have bad things happen to them.
<AngryDesu> There are good reasons when you think of tales of past magical leaders / kingdoms and such which populate magical girl shows. Kingdoms the likes of which have never been seen since... which co-incides with 'magic' becoming less mysterious on the whole.
<Rhaka> What it means is that the MA could have *only* been set up by people who were strong enough to pierce the barrier.
<AngryDesu> They've just come to the wrong explanation of why.
<Rhaka> They'd by necessity have to bring in people who are too weak to pierce it.
<Rhaka> Maybe something happened to *them* that made the others shy away from disclosure?
<MrGreen> Yes. And that weaker mages who go public have the world acting against them.
<MrGreen> The world /tries to kill you/ if you're overt with magic.
<Rhaka> Paradox? Hm.
<MrGreen> Oh, it's just seemingly bad luck.
<LurkingGoblin> I actually like that idea
<Rhaka> Problem, though.
<Rhaka> Endymion died 8000 BC.
<Winchester> I had an idea too long to type out here, so have a forum link:
<Rhaka> Aren't there already references to Merlin in there? That was 500 AD.
<MrGreen> But after all the participants in an obvious magical duel are dead within a weak by "freak accidents" and the normal people ignore it... well, that's different.
<gamlain> ...I'm going to pass on this interpretation of the spell. No. Not only no, hell no.
<MrGreen> You get mages being secretive, or else they can /die/
<Rhaka> Ah Winchester, I subsitute our attempt:
<Rhaka> gamlain, why not?
<Rhaka> And what do you propose?
<MrGreen> They are, from their PoV, being charitable by saving these girl's lives, because they don't know the dangers they're putting themselves in by going public.
<AngryDesu> One early description of things was that... mmm... Endymon's 'masquarade' worked like a blanket 50% concealment bonus to hiding magic.
<AngryDesu> So it's plausible people think /their/ actions are the only ones hiding things and that they're being successful... up until that 50% bonus disappears and 'hiding' becomes so, so much harder.
<gamlain> Basically it makes the earth magic responsible for killing a shitload of people that it is setup *to protect in the first place*. It's a fucking stupid idea.
<Rhaka> I like the idea of an actively malicious barrier. Considering that it was set up right the time when Chaos magic was acting up on a global scale, thanks to the sealings and all.
<Rhaka> It's not stupid, but it is an idea that has bad things happen to good people for no good reason.
<AngryDesu> I don't think it should be actively malicious but rather... mechanically malicious?
<MrGreen> No, because it also ruins all hostile actions. It forces Dark Kingdoms to be subtle and low key, because they get hit by it too. It means that cultist who try to summon horrors have their rituals not work.
<havocfett> It doesn't really seem to fit the project.
<MrGreen> Because they bought the wrong kind of chalk, because the texts which would tell them how to summon horrors get wet in the libraries they're sitting in
<gamlain> I understand some people here don't like that the Nasuverse mages are getting some distortion of their background. Tough. They do not get special protection in this; Nearly everything else is getting distortion too. That's what happens in a large crossover. But At the very least, it will not be acknowledged as such by me. Endymion is going to feel bad enough as it is.
<havocfett> Rhaka's timeline seems to fit for the involved factions
<MrGreen> Look, if you want to make a well-written antagonist, you're actually going to have to bite the bullet and /not/ stack everything against them. I know this must seem hard, but in order for the victories of good mean something, you actually have to give evil some victories.
<@Golden> l
<AngryDesu> That's kind of why i prefer the 50% concealment version - it lets people think that only /their/ actions keep things secret. The MA think their actions are for the greater good because as far as they know they're the only thing keeping magic hidden.
<Winchester> My idea is simply that the spell makes everyone not believe in magic unless told by a mage. If you know, and try to tell anyone, they won't believe you. Previous mages have been under the thumb of the MA and wouldn't go on TV (or if they're on TV, their audience has been puny). Big news incident on national TV and a magical girl holding an interview? Everyone who heard believes.
<AngryDesu> But when it comes down, said actions are going to be shown to simply not be enough.
<havocfett> I prefer AngryDesu's version, since it means that the MA's actions /do/ mean something.
<LurkingGoblin> As a note are not the MA just a side secondary threat anyway?
<havocfett> Them hiding magic actually does make it more effectively hidden, because they are supplementing an existing spell
<havocfett> There is no information on the Main Threat
<LurkingGoblin> I thought the main threat was the paradoxes?
<havocfett> Which is one of my problems with the arc
<Rhaka> LurkingGoblin, no, the MA is the main arc villain now.
<havocfett> Ah
<Rhaka> Which is a really big issue imo because they would work better if they just fall apart in the background.
<AngryDesu> I was okay with things back when it was the MA... when we had plotting and maneuvering, leading to backstabs and media manipulation and stuff.
<LurkingGoblin> I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be a side threat though. they don't FEEL like a big threat
<Rhaka> They are people who have lived lives fighting for a cause that simply doesn't matter anymore and most of them just.. walk away and try new things.
<Rhaka> IMO
<MrGreen> And, certainly, you /really/ shouldn't break the Masquerade spell until the climax of the 2nd Arc. It should not be something easy to get rid of; it shouldn't even be at all easy to find. It fails as a Masquerade spell if it's easy to find.
<AngryDesu> One of my favorite bits was waaaaay back when someone wrote a snip about a tv discussion on the validity of a magical girl vid.
<Rhaka> I remember that one.
<gamlain> *nods* Having the MA actually be meaningfull in that way is nice. Also...yeah, that doesn't work. The MA, compared to what the various magical girls deal with is not a main threat. Also, Green? Shut up on that subject. It is not getting changed.
<MrGreen> If you're going to focus the next arc on trying to cover things up, it must be possible for things to be covered up.
<gamlain> That's not the focus though.
<havocfett> I'm going to go ahead and say that the MA might work best as a noncombat villain, who manipulate things and people on the sidelines as the Girls deal with lots of smaller threats
<AngryDesu> Technically, Green, if it's a masquarade effect caused by Endymon accidentally putting it up then what the hell exactly is stopping Mamoru taking it down? He has the authority to do so.
<gamlain> The Main focus is the fact that it /cannot/ be covered up anymore, not the attempt to.
<havocfett> know what, forget trying to make this sheet work, what the /hell/ is the focus and theme of Arc 2?
<@Golden> Endymon has to realize it exists.
<@Golden> AngryDesu gamlain havocfett LurkingGoblin MrGreen Rhaka Winchester
<MrGreen> Because he didn't put it up, by my understanding. He asked the earth to put it up.
<AngryDesu> Hell, he could even bring it down accidentally just by desiring to /find/ Akiko now he's seen her on tv, and wondering what else he's not seen.
<@Golden> If you could be so kind as to be quiet, I think I have an answer
<Winchester> The MA as an additional nuisance drawing the attention and energy away from a potential real threat is much better than an MA pumped up to a main threat by murdering some of the members, definitely
<MrGreen> And that means that he has to persuade it to take it down
<AngryDesu> ...
<MrGreen> And considering that it was a death-effect, that's harder.
<havocfett> Golden, speak.
<@Golden> First everyone shut up
<MrGreen> Death-curses and death-blessings are metaphysically very potent
<@Golden> Thank you
<Thy-Robocop> Golden: Might be better if you post your idea in the main thread
<@Golden> We have two different sides who are arguing for two different interpretations
<@Golden> I will.
<@Golden> But it's best to get this out of the way now
<@Golden> One is the original idea: have it as an obscuring field that just exists to block the existance of magic from being known
<@Golden> And then there's the new idea: have it act more agressively by removing the threats, like Gaia in the Nasuverse
<@Golden> To solve this problem, I propose a compromise
<@Golden> For the original idea, it remains as an obscuring field, normally acting passively.
<@Golden> For the new idea, have it become aggressive if someone actually tries to remove the Masquerade directly
<AngryDesu> That... could work.
<@Golden> From what I read in this conversation, it was proposed that the MA tried to reveal the Masquerade to lesser people only for something bad to happen.
<gamlain> I have already said this. But I will say it again: I will not acknowledge this 'maelevolent field' interpretaton in part or in whole. I *WILL* directly torpedo it if it keeps getting thrown around.
<@Golden> It's not malevolent
<LurkingGoblin> *is with gamlain*
<@Golden> You misinterpreted
<gamlain> Not at all.
<@Golden> Let me put it this way:
<Rhaka> Renegade interrupt!
<@Golden> Only Endymion/Guardian of Earth can directly remove the Masquerade
<@Golden> Right gamlain and LurkingGoblin?
<Rhaka> Let us redefine "malevolent" as "goes into overdrive".
<Winchester> The enchantment will defend itself if someone *other than Mamoru, the administrator* tries to remove it
<Winchester> Ninjaed
<Rhaka> That is, people who try to show magic to too many people just forget they could do magic int he first place.
<gamlain> If it's active at all, that's maelevolence. It's bad enough as a passive field. And I will not acknowledge it.
<Rhaka> This also works for Dark Kingdoms: operations which grow too big simply peter out because the minions forget they're under mind control/youkai/whatever.
<MrGreen> Golden: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. It's enough that it's clear that bad things happen if you do it, so trying to go public is /not/ done. And it has the added benefit that it explains that various Dark Kingdoms in the past have had to be covert, because their... ninjaed
<Winchester> Gamlain came up with the idea in the idea of the masquerade spell in the first place IIRC, so I'll back whatever he wants here
<@Golden> gamlain: malevolent: evil, harmful, injurious
<Rhaka> Huh.
<Rhaka> So a barrier that does *anything* wont fly with you?
<@Golden> What I'm suggesting doesn't fit with that defiition
<gamlain> Didn't say that precisely. But the one that leads to the earth king's spell directly offing people or mindwipeing them is a big 'no'.
<@Golden> definition
<@Golden> And I didn't even describe the punishment
<Rhaka> But the effect of the barrier *is* mindwiping people.
<AngryDesu> I can see things being more like... if people are trying to break it then it pushes back equally - so you've got no more chance at success than you had if you weren't intending to do it.
<MrGreen> As soon as anything like that is conceptualised, it's mind-control.
<AngryDesu> It's only when *Mamoru* sees the jump event and essentially goes 'why did i not see this before?' that the Earth responds with 'because you told me to hide it'
<AngryDesu> Combined with him wanting her to get help, or wanting to find her, the effect lessens because it needs to do so in order to comply with his intent.
<Rhaka> Frankly, I think people simply forgetting they're mages when they try to go public is the best motivation the MA could have - they're scared shitless because they think with the magical girls going public *every single magical user worldwide* will forget they are capable of magic and the craft will simply disappear.
<gamlain> Yes it is, Rhaka, in very small part. It's the deliberation I object to. I will say the discussion here is making inspriation though. (Hard to explain without demonstrating, however, how much Mamoru's perception of just the nicest version of this is...well. I really have to write that snip, soon.)
<AngryDesu> Which coincides with the general public believing things because the effect is no longer as strong and, eventually, shuts off entirely.
<MrGreen> And I would hold that that's too easy. It should provide a nice storyline, finding out its existence, the other characters fighting the apathy, the fact that they keep on having to be overt or people don't seem to notice and then the careful placation of the Earth, possibly requiring the characters to have to go to Endymion's place of death to lift it.
<MrGreen> It provides a solid arc
<@Golden> They've already gone to the Moon.
<Winchester> Rhaka, if going public made you forget you were a mage, Akiko wouldn't know she was a magical girl by the time she jumped, and Nanoha and Fate would fall out of the sky during the rescue.
<@Golden> A better idea would be to go to...
<@Golden> The Golden Kingdon
<@Golden> Kingdom
<MrGreen> That works better, yes.
<AngryDesu> Must not make a showers joke.
<Rhaka> That could be because of Endymion's passive knowledge.
<Rhaka> Since he's the focal point of the barrier.
<Winchester> Association problem: Golden Kingdom = Golden Land = Dark World of Hyrule
<@Golden> Elysion
<Rhaka> Elsyium
<@Golden> The center point of Sailor Moon Dream
<Winchester> ...calling your kingdom Elysium is pretty pretentious, it must really have been paradise on earth...
<gamlain> I refuse to make Mamoru responsible for thousands of years of world wide horror on that magnitude. It's hideously antithetical to his character and nature. So if a compromise is reached, and it involves his part of the masqurade being responsible for people forgettingtheir lives or dying it's going to be ignored.
<@Golden> Why do you think Endymion was called Prince
<Winchester> I'm still with Gamlain. Leave it to the villains to cause horror stories, not the heroes
<Rhaka> Then come up with something better.
<Rhaka> Come up with something coherent, which makes the barrier relevant and the MA not come off as a bunch of mustache-twirling villains with no real motivation other than to be curbstomped.
<Winchester> Why must the MA be a relevant enough enemy that they even *need* to be stomped?
<Rhaka> Nono, we're past that point.
<gamlain> I'm sorry, but..that last part has nothing to do with the barrier. I has everything to do with how the MA is being characterized. Also I agree with Winchester three.
<Rhaka> The point we're at is *why does the MA even exist with its stated motivation*
<Winchester> They're a thematically poor fit for the story we were originally planning to tell
<Rhaka> No shit.
<@Golden> Prisma Ilya
<Winchester> ...but we don't *need* to pull in a whole setting. We've excised a bunch of other stuff already from other stories
<@Golden> We excised xXxHolic and almost the entirety of Tsuabsa: Resevoir Chronicles
<havocfett> 11:11 Winchester Rhaka, if going public made you forget you were a mage, Akiko wouldn't know she was a magical girl by the time she jumped, and Nanoha and Fate would fall out of the sky during the rescue.
<havocfett> Akiko immediately attempted to kill herself
<havocfett> Fate expected to be executed
<havocfett> And Nanoha almost got herself killed soon afterwards in a silly tactical decision
<Winchester> Havoc: you're nuts. Fate and Nanoha expected a serious scolding and a long grounding, but nothing worse than that
<havocfett> On the way to saving Akiko? I think I misread the Fate PoV bit
<Thy-Robocop> The MA, as far as I understand, was introduced as a political, OOC threat for the Magical Girls to face
<@Golden> You did
<AngryDesu> Who cares if Endymon isn't a bastard or that he'd never make a lethal/whatever barrier... when he never /intended/ to make such a thing.
<@Golden> Fate was exaggerating
<havocfett> Ah
<AngryDesu> This is a problem that seems to go through all the 'grimderp' arguments. Things can't have unintended consequences because those might make people sad.
<Thy-Robocop> they should raise the point whether going public is good or not in the long run
<@Golden> Mostly
<Thy-Robocop> and I just mucked up the conversation
<Winchester> The TSAB doesn't appear to have a death penalty, they've banned lethal combat magics, etc etc. Executing a minor for savign a life? No frigging way
<Thy-Robocop> sorry
<havocfett> I'm not familiar with Nanoha, and took it more literally than intended.
<Rhaka> Agreed. Too many people suffer from a black and white morality when writing. This is bad and reduces BFP to a series of curbstomp after curbstomp.
<havocfett> My bad
<@Golden> Arc 1 doesn't really have that problem
<Rhaka> No, it doesn't.
<havocfett> Yes
<havocfett> This is why Arc 1 isn't being discussed
<havocfett> It seems solid
<Rhaka> It's also noticeable that Arc 1 focuses on an OC and her OC antagonists, instead of wholesale imported plot and factions.
<MrGreen> So... basically, people who can't tolerate anything apart from black and white morality shouldn't be allowed near any decisions, right?
<@Golden> Not necessarily
<@Golden> Sometimes, black and white is required in a story.
<AngryDesu> I'm still angry over the whole 'NF is only to get the grimderp out the way' thing.
<@Golden> But only when the antagonist is so heinous
<Rhaka> Hell, I quit because the way the Incubators were reduced to the level of yet another Dark Kingdom.
<@Golden> That was fixed
<@Golden> Shortly after you life
<@Golden> left
<Rhaka> And I was mainly arguing against Lord Archive, who noticeably didn't suffer from this black/white problem.
<Rhaka> No, it wasn't.
<@Golden> When we went back to the Incubators it was
<gamlain>, on pretty much all counts there. Deceptive statements. There are degrees and degrees of things; Make no mistake. Even at the /nicest/ interpretation I have of Endymion's involvement, it's far, far from 'harmless'. Just keeping people secreet is damaging enough by itself.
<Rhaka> The Incubators are still somehow competent enough to keep under the radar for five years with no modus operandi change and yet not competent enough to notice that they had an OCP head their way
<AngryDesu> Incubators worked kind of early on when they were being duped by something bigger, since they could do all their morally iffy shit because as far as they knew 'it was the only way'.
<@Golden> Their actions are based on the fact they consider themselves to be the 'good guys'
<AngryDesu> And given how often QB admits they have fuck all idea how magic and such even works... being duped is not too hard to imagine.
<Rhaka> Anyway, that's not an issue that should be brought back up, but I'd like to point out that something has gone *horrible* wrong with the project.
<Rhaka> Case in point: gamlain.
<@Golden> gamlain is our best writer
<Rhaka> Can't have heros who accidentally do bad things. Can't have bad things happen to good people for no good reason.
<Rhaka> Apparently threatens to quit every time things don't go his way.
<Rhaka> What the hell is that?
<MrGreen> Evil DA mind-control rays, possibly.
<Rhaka> You don't even offer anything but "nuh uh, I will ignore" that.
<Winchester> Golden: gamlain is our *most* writer, at least
<@Golden> Let me rephrase: gamlain is our best writer THUS FAR
<gamlain> Hardly. I certainly can and do. As I've repeatedly said, it's a matter of degree. It would help, mind, if /someone else were writing you know/, but well.
<Rhaka> I don't even want you to turn a 180. Just do something more than constantly say "no".
<AngryDesu> Meanwhile I'm just the grimderp people want out of the way...
<AngryDesu> Oh god i'm starting to sound like an 'artiste'
<Rhaka> I'll send you an apple for christmas, AngryDesu.
<AngryDesu> But that's so far awaaaaay
<Winchester> AngryDesu - no you're not. The NF won't be the worst thing facing the MGA by far...
<@Golden> Their main rememberance is their different MO from other Dark Kingdons
<@Golden> Kingdoms
<gamlain> Rhaka, the reason you only hear me say no is that I am very ameniable up to a point to almost anything. But the very very few things I'm /not/ ameniable to I'll stand on. Otherwise I prefer to use up my creativity actually writing instead of endlessly gabbing about what we're not writing. I only have so much energy and free time - this weekend is an aberation.
<MrGreen> But luckily, if some people have their way, the dread beasts of unintended consequences and narrative tension will not show their faces
<Winchester> I'm against permanent character death because there's so much more you can do with them without killing them. Killing one person puts the others through the wringer, true, but there are other ways of doing that.
<Rhaka> brb, I need something to drink. Rant incoming
<Thy-Robocop> I am kind of lost here
<MrGreen> gamlain was threatening to ignore anything which didn't fit in with his views, offering no compromise, nothing but an "I will ignore it", over the idea that the last action of a dying man might have had unforeseen consequences. That's /nuts/
<Thy-Robocop> possibly because I have been killing Emperors and a dragon has just landed RIGHT NEXT TO ME
<Thy-Robocop> anyway
<gamlain> NOt suprising; You've got two or three different topics being argued simultaneously
<gamlain> Incorrect, MR. Green.
<@Golden> I offered a Masquerade compromise
<gamlain> Not even a little bit correct, as it happens.

<LurkingGoblin> for reference I stopped paying attention ages ago and have been reading a fic
<gamlain> I objected to a proposal that would make Mamoru - or rather his family line - responsible for directly killing and full mindwiping /tens of thousands of mages and ordinary people/ over the years due to a spell cast to protect. It's a massive 'what the hell?' I'm not arguing on that. Unintended concequences of that spell were built into it from the word 'go'. I'm just not going to make
<gamlain> him directly responsible for mass horror over a thousand years. /indirectly/ is another thing.
<LurkingGoblin> at some point i will write up a full idea and post it, with my full BTVS expy too.
<LurkingGoblin> *goes back to fic*
<Rhaka> So what is your definition of "directly" and "indirectly" here and why are "unintended consequences" part of "directly"?
<@Golden> gamlain
<@Golden> Endymion didn't say to do it; the Earth interpreted it that way
<@Golden> To keep the reincarnations safe.
<AngryDesu> "keep those girls hidden, keep everyone beryl could seek to harm hidden" perhaps.
<AngryDesu> actually that second part is bad since it'd kind of cover all humanity
<Winchester> Rhaka, if something falls off the back of your truck because you didn't secure it properly for whatever reason, and it causes an accident behind you, you're still directly responsible for the incident even if you never intended for it to happen.
<Rhaka> And for the record, does "people forget they're magi when they'Re trying to go public" fall under "mindwiping horror"?
<Rhaka> And still: what. do. you. propose. instead?
<AngryDesu> Actually Winchester, this'd be more like coming up with a cure for cancer and testing it, finding it safe, then using it.
<Winchester> Being a mage is a pretty major part of your life.
<gamlain> Basically the issue is that anything the spell does directly as an /attack/ - and mindwiping people wholesail or getting them killed is an attack - is directly the responsibility fo the caster, reguardless of his intent. And yes. yes it does. And: You already know.
<AngryDesu> Then twenty odd years later finding out that it had long term effects your tests never hoped to catch.
<Rhaka> Humor me. All I'm seeing is either "the MA is just evil because" or "the MA needs to be removed from the fic".
<AngryDesu> maybe fifty. I'm not up on how long such things have to be tested for.
<Rhaka> And no explanation of "the MA was formed because and by" when the barrier was already active.
<gamlain> and not necessary. Ah. Well, I have had thoughts about that before, but people tend to ignore them for some reason.
<@Golden> Because the Arcs after Arc 1 are outlines subject to change
<NHO> Old idea was that they all got similar magic and it allowed them to congregate.
<@Golden> Only the foundational aspects are set in stone.
<@Golden> For Arcs 2/3
<Winchester> The MA doesn't need to be removed. They need to be relegated to a much lesser threat than the forum thread so far has been treating them as, because the type of the threat they have to present in order to be main villains is thematically inappropriate
<Rhaka> Even as a lesser thread there needs to be a reason why the MA exists in the first place and why it does what it does.
<Rhaka> And how, too.
<@Golden> Does anyone want Darth to be here?
<Winchester> ...let him in.
<Rhaka> Frankly, I'd rather talk to a wall, but if you think it will help.
<@Golden> I hear hesitation there
<@Golden> He's talking in the thread while being ignorant of what's happening here.
<gamlain> The issue I'd origionally envisioned was this: The masqurade does not, in fact, protect you from the bad guys. At least not very much or very completely. The Mages association exists to reinforce the masqurade because if you -break- it, historically /the dark kingdoms get you/. Because if they know you exist, they can hunt you. And then people forget it happened, because its' too unbeleivable
<gamlain> and there's no evidence left behind.
<AngryDesu> Hm. That could be workable.
<gamlain> What it does is keep you a secreet. And as long as you're secreet, you're not hunted.
<havocfett> That works
<Rhaka> Finally.
<@Golden> It does
<havocfett> That actually works pretty well
<Rhaka> And it's good. Why didn't you just say that half an hour ago?
<MrGreen> I would point out that you need to be prepared for Dark Kingdoms to have that level of power
<havocfett> so Arc 2 would be an arc against the Kingdoms hunting down girls specifically
<AngryDesu> I'd add that specifically trying to 'turn it (the effect) off' is likely bad, simply because I doubt anyone could actually handle the power needed to do it.
<havocfett> With the MA as a dubious third side
<@Golden> If you said that in the first place, then this entire discussion wouldn't have been needed.
<gamlain> *nods*
<Rhaka> MrGreen, that is a good point, but I think this *Atlas* arm of the MA could be the force tasked with supporting actions against such strong powers.
<gamlain> Sorry, I thought it was covered ages ago. I guess it got forgotten about.
<havocfett> Trying to get the girls to /shut/ /up/ and /hide/ while doing their jobs.
<Rhaka> So they'd help the girls fight the Dark Kingdom, then make them keep their activity down.
<havocfett> Though I still think that making the Mages Association an OC organization would work best since Nasu brings in a bunch of really silly baggage.
<Rhaka> And frankly, the girls will comply, because they've just seen the level of evil they went up against and Atlas is *helping them*.
<gamlain> yep. (The unintended concequence of course, is that it also hides you for each other. So there has never been a large enough organization to decisively *win* against a lot of pocket dark kingdoms)
<@Golden> We're ignoring most of it.
<@Golden> havocfett
<Rhaka> <gamlain> Sorry, I thought it was covered ages ago. I guess it got forgotten about.
<MrGreen> I would also point out that, for example, the SM Dark Kingdom does not appear to have that kind of level of assets, considering their use of single youma at a time for their duties. So you're going to have to boost them rather a lot, or add a lot of OC Dark Kingdoms
<Rhaka> Don't think that. BFP has horrible information retention.
<@Golden> Only bringing in things that are either implied in Prisma Ilya or brought in to solve a problem.
<havocfett> It is completely possible that there are /loads/ of Dark Kingdoms, likely in areas with larger human habitation than Japan.
<@Golden> Aoko is the latter option
<AngryDesu> it's also possible that not all dark kingdoms are stupid.
<havocfett> Yeah
<gamlain> heh. (This has been kind of my working paradicgram)
<MrGreen> Yes. I'm just raising this as an issue, that you will need to be prepared to confront.
<Rhaka> I had a snippet once that dealt with the dark kingdoms.
<gamlain> ...acccck.
<AngryDesu> The dark kingdom was kind of locked away for the most part, so they had ever lowering resources as their shit got killed.
<gamlain> I have go to for a while; Realzing I haven't eaten yet. Will leave this on.
<AngryDesu> Others might not have such restrictions.
<Rhaka> Basically, once upon a time Earth had access to easy time travel. Thanks to the timeline snafus, the Moon Kingdom couldn't deal with them, so they were locked up until the stars were right and they broke free over time, getting stomped.
<Rhaka> Them = the various pockets of evil that cropped up.
<AngryDesu> hell, the NF has been implied to actively let girls attack it because then it could essentially ambush the hell out of them with mindfuck.
<Rhaka> And then they put Sailor Pluto in there to prevent people from using that easy method of time travel.
<Rhaka> So most of the past 10,000 years the MA and various girls have dealt with the fallout of the fall of the Moon Kingdom and the MA is trying to be the support structure that broke apart when the kingdom.
<Rhaka> Only they've become really corrupt and conservative, probably in the 16th century.
<@Golden> And they had different names over time.
<@Golden> Different structures, different ideas according to where they existed.
<Rhaka> Maybe Atlas is older than the MA itself and -keeping with our timeline- the association itself formed around Atlas during the Witch Hunts int he Renaissance.
<@Golden> The Sea of Estay is the original MA
<@Golden> The Clock Tower in London is the organizational force.
<@Golden> And Atlas is the other well-known force of the MA.
<Rhaka> I fear that's going too deep into Nasu for me to understand what you are referring to.

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<Rhaka> Alright. Everybody else, what do you think?
<@Golden> I'm satisfied

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<Winchester> ...oh fuck, I just imagined a sidestory where some of the girls are researching old news reports to find other magical girls, and they find some...and then more...and they're already dead, defeated by places like the Nightmare Factory.
<@Golden> Then you're really going to hate the Nightmare Demolition Corps.
<Rhaka> They should find some who simply disappeared and found a home in the MA too, just to show that the organisation isn't just ebil.
<Winchester> It ends with the Alliance making a memorial wall, where all the confirmed magical girl casualties they can find are put up,
<Thy-Robocop> I think we have come up with some pretty good ideas here
<Rhaka> havocfett, MrGreen?
<Thy-Robocop> nevertheless, I would repropose having a separate forum
<@Golden> This is the advantage of IRC.
<havocfett> ?
<Thy-Robocop> or other place where we can start infodumping stuff
<Thy-Robocop> and can refer to it at a later date
<havocfett> I'm liking the current topic of discussion
<Rhaka> Support? Suggestions? You're being a critic, you are bound to have more to compare this to.
<@Golden> A second Wiki.
<havocfett> ...A wiki, robocop?
<Thy-Robocop> aye
<Rhaka> Hah
<Thy-Robocop> upgrade the current wiki
<@Golden> Something I proposed long ago.
<Rhaka> Why a second wiki, though?
<Thy-Robocop> make a seperate, private wiki for authors
<Thy-Robocop> to discuss spoilerish stuff
<@Golden> This Wiki is for characters.
<havocfett> ...A google doc, then?
<Rhaka> Hm.
<havocfett> Or a typewithme?
<Thy-Robocop> aye that
<@Golden> Areas, and plot
<Rhaka> I disagree actually.
<Rhaka> This is a round robin.
<Rhaka> Every reader is a potential author.
<Rhaka> You shouldn't hide such things from them.
<@Golden> Talking about what's already been written
<Thy-Robocop> on the other hand, would you enjoy a story that's been spoilt to you?
<Fenris_Blackwell_> @Rhaka: Tell them when they ask?
<Rhaka> Depends on the story.
<havocfett> Get it all on a wosscalled, Google Doc or private document
<Rhaka> Hrm. That leaves out the people who don't think to ask.
<havocfett> Give the link to anyone interested in writing or critiquing
<Rhaka> Doesn't wikia have such things as hidden pages too?
<havocfett> Make it vlear, at the beginning of each thread, that you'll need to ask for the link in order to get access to spoilers.
<Fenris_Blackwell_> @Rhaka: Then simply tell them that there's a document there if they want it.
<Winchester> Meh, leave the author's wiki public, with a big warning that everything here is spoiler info, and subject to massive changes between now and publishing
<Rhaka> That could work.
<Thy-Robocop> ...that could work to
<Thy-Robocop> too
<Thy-Robocop> just as long as we've got something permanent to which we can refer to, other than a chat
<MrGreen> Especially if you don't spread the URL around
<Rhaka> Alright, is "" good?
<Fenris_Blackwell_> May I make a request? Or someone point me in the right direction if there's been a comprehensive post on it recently?
<AngryDesu> BPHaru being the nanofate guy who autobans anything written by people on forus he doesn't like - regardless of content.
<Thy-Robocop> ok
<Thy-Robocop> so, plan of attack
<Winchester> Is free? Why separate the wikis?
<Rhaka> Go ahead, Fenris.
<Fenris_Blackwell_> What exactly are all the issues right now? MA's obvious, but what else?
<Rhaka> is the current wiki.
<@Golden> The story wiki
<Thy-Robocop> Winchester: we don't have to seperate them now
<Winchester> who is the admin for that?
<@Golden> I made it.
<Fenris_Blackwell_> I've been lurking around for a bit, but I'm still kind of lost so I don't know where to jump in.
<@Golden> But I pretty much said others would have to work on it.
<Fenris_Blackwell_> I get the over-all plans for arcs, but not much more than that.
<Thy-Robocop> right guys
<Thy-Robocop> plan of attack
<Rhaka> UberJJK made the bfp wiki.
<Thy-Robocop> we need to sort the wiki out
<@Golden> No
<@Golden> I did
<@Golden> He was just the main editor of it
<Rhaka> Srsly?
<Winchester> Then skip making a new wiki, make author's section where we can discuss and storyboard stuff
<Rhaka> In that case: my bad.
<@Golden> I refused to work with it because I kind of suck at Wikis.
<Rhaka> I can work with wikis.
<Rhaka> I'll do the whole coordination thing if people are actually willing to cooperate.
<@Golden> When I made it, it was made clear others would have to work with it.
<Thy-Robocop> it needs to be updated with plot summaries, snippet links, articles detailing all the worldbuilding details
<Thy-Robocop> Rhaka: ok
<@Golden> The Fanclub section
<gamlain> For a long time I wasn't updating it but it should be current for me at this point, on story posts.
<Thy-Robocop> I can write up a summary for my current story, and the ideas of the worldbuilding behind it
<Rhaka> First of all, it needs people willing to write down what the worldbuilding has actually created.
<Thy-Robocop> and character infos
<Rhaka> Sounds good.
<Thy-Robocop> can anyone create a new article?
<AngryDesu> I'm gonna have to sit down and write out a shitton of NF and Akiko stuff...
<Thy-Robocop> or would it be best if we post stuff to you, Rhaka
<Rhaka> Golden, can you give me admin and bureocrat access? I'll go and see how and if wikia can do the whole "keep some pages from being seen by people you don't want" thing.
<@Golden> One problem...
<Rhaka> Everybody can starts articles. Hang on.
<@Golden> I've completely forgotten my own password.
<@Golden> And account name.
<AngryDesu> Ahaha...
<@Golden> Though that's fixable.
<Winchester> Lololol
<Rhaka> Goddamn it.
<@Golden> Wait 5-10 minutes.
<Rhaka> Alright guys.
<Rhaka> Start there.
<@Golden> Actually later.
<@Golden> Have to eat now.
<@Golden> Will be back soon
<Rhaka> Just add streams of consciousness, summaries, and background informations you have down.
<Rhaka> We'll do a cleanup and a repost of it in a coherent form.
<Thy-Robocop> okey
<Winchester> Would be nice if we had some place that could be used to storyboard stuff in real time - show the effects of switching stuff around etc to everyone involved without actually committing the article
<Rhaka> I'll post something on the forum thread to announce that I'll start taking care of the wiki. Nothing else.
<Rhaka> Objections?
<Thy-Robocop> none so far
<Winchester> Go Rhaka!
<Thy-Robocop> I will update my side as soon as I can

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<Rhaka> Alright.
<Thy-Robocop> first I gotta finish Skyrim
<Thy-Robocop> as in, the main quests
<Winchester> You had me worried there. Skyrim can't be finished.

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<gamlain> heh. So I'm hearing from someone else who has it. Right..have some stuff to do today, so I'll be back in quite some time. Later this evening, belike.

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<dan-heron> so, I missed most of the discussion?
<dan-heron> I stopped by earlier, and it looked like there was plenty of
<Fenris_Blackwell_> They were debating about MA/Endymion's barrier, but no idea how it ended. Computer hiccuped.
<dan-heron> oh, no wonder.
<Fenris_Blackwell_> Wiki/google doc/something to write ideas down where they can be referred to in the future.
<Rhaka> Hang on
<Rhaka> <gamlain> The issue I'd origionally envisioned was this: The masqurade does not, in fact, protect you from the bad guys. At least not very much or very completely. The Mages association exists to reinforce the masqurade because if you -break- it, historically /the dark kingdoms get you/. Because if they know you exist, they can hunt you. And then people forget it happened, because its' too unbeleivable
<Rhaka> <gamlain> and there's no evidence left behind
<Rhaka> <AngryDesu> The dark kingdom was kind of locked away for the most part, so they had ever lowering resources as their shit got killed.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> Basically, once upon a time Earth had access to easy time travel. Thanks to the timeline snafus, the Moon Kingdom couldn't deal with them, so they were locked up until the stars were right and they broke free over time, getting stomped.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> Them = the various pockets of evil that cropped up.
<Rhaka> <AngryDesu> hell, the NF has been implied to actively let girls attack it because then it could essentially ambush the hell out of them with mindfuck.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> And then they put Sailor Pluto in there to prevent people from using that easy method of time travel.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> So most of the past 10,000 years the MA and various girls have dealt with the fallout of the fall of the Moon Kingdom and the MA is trying to be the support structure that broke apart when the kingdom.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> Only they've become really corrupt and conservative, probably in the 16th century.
<Rhaka> <Golden> And they had different names over time.
<Rhaka> <Golden> Different structures, different ideas according to where they existed.
<Rhaka> <Rhaka> Maybe Atlas is older than the MA itself and -keeping with our timeline- the association itself formed around Atlas during the Witch Hunts int he Renaissance.
<Rhaka> <Golden> The Sea of Estay is the original MA
<Rhaka> <Golden> The Clock Tower in London is the organizational force.
<Rhaka> <Golden> And Atlas is the other well-known force of the MA.
<Rhaka> That's current consensus.
<Winchester> Rhaka, stop
<Rhaka> Sorry, pasted multiple lines.
<Winchester> You can cut-and-paste the whole chat log into a text file and put it somewhere for later perusal
<dan-heron> is the Gdoc already prepared, Rhaka?
<Rhaka> No, we're adding things to wiki.
<dan-heron> or should I compile those bits?
<Rhaka> I'm taking charge there.
<Rhaka> As soon as Golden remembers his password, anyway.
<Rhaka> I'm preparing a forum post right now.
<Rhaka> If it turns out I'm completely wrong about wikia and you cannot actually hide pages from most users, then we should consider using GDoc.
<AngryDesu> i'm tapping out some initial NF things in the worldbuilding bit...
<dan-heron> such as?
<AngryDesu> Who they are, executive list, things that have been confirmed in text at the moment.
<Rhaka> Whoops, I'm being censured.
<dan-heron> how so?
<AngryDesu> Darth bitching about 'back room deals in IRC'
<AngryDesu> funny, given there's nothing at all objectionable or even vaguely related to IRC about what Rhaka posted.
<dan-heron> Aaah, I'll go check on him. We sent him messages, I even sent one to you at the same time, right Desu?
<Rhaka> I did say that we had a discussion on IRC
<Rhaka> Where the information disconnection became painfully apparent.
<AngryDesu> ah, true. But you stated something which happens all over the thread anyway.
<Rhaka> Because, seriously, I wouldn't have had any objections to the MA if gamlain's "common knowledge" had *been* common knowledge.
<Rhaka> And I don't blame him for thinking that.
<Rhaka> At the same time, this calls the magical super-ninjas into question.
<Rhaka> But those are plot tumors which suffer from a lack of oversight - this is a failing of BFP which tends to focus on the current most AWESOME thing and then only afterwards tries to implement in in the story framework.
<Rhaka> They should go away when we start coordinating.
<dan-heron> how's the thing on the Wikia going, Rhaka?
<Rhaka> Golden is eating.
<Rhaka> Right now, I can't do much. What first needs to happen is getting information on the wiki to coordinate.
<Rhaka> Then I can start building comprehensive articles for factions, existing story arcs, update the map, etc.
<Rhaka> And then everyone else can help with writing these articles after they've been established to work - I expect that whatever I do will have to be rethought by consus at least once.
<Rhaka> *consensus
<dan-heron> Golden is the one with mod powers over the wikia, or there is other person?
<Rhaka> He's the wiki creator.
<dan-heron> the Wiki will remain open for changes, or they will go through you?
<dan-heron> open for other users to change, I mean
<Rhaka> The wiki will remain open for changes.
<Rhaka> I neither have the time nor the inclination for a chokehold on it.
<dan-heron> ok'
<Rhaka> What's been discussed however is a hidden part open for authors, with the spoilery stuff that normal readers shouldn't read.
<Rhaka> I'm fairly certain that wikia supports that (I know wikis can do it), but that would only open for someone with at least admin access; same with deleting pages and the like.
<LurkingGoblin> back as I finished the fic
<LurkingGoblin> that was amusing
<dan-heron> well, I'll be leaving for a moment brb

<LurkingGoblin> did we come to any conclusions?

<Rhaka> Scroll up
<Rhaka> 21 minutes ago.
<LurkingGoblin> kk